An Impassioned Argument Using Not Only Logic, But Mixed Metaphors And Guts, Too.

I think I've got it aalllll figgered out, man.  I know why stupid people always seem to win out in this world, why logic has left the building. It's really quite simple. Say two people are having an argument about something. Anything. For instance, who can run faster, Superman or the Flash? Or who would win in a fight, a Caveman or an Astronaut? Or whether Ann Coulter is a mutant or not. Anything. Say one of the people involved in the argument is an intelligent, logical being. A Rational, as a sop to Miss Luongo's personality theory obsession. Convinced that conclusions ought to be reached with actual facts taken into consideration, each step of the argument followed by the next logical step, based on actual evidence. Say the other debator is... well, less rational. A Guardian type. Convinced that little niceties such as good conclusions based on logical thought are less important than following what your gut says is right, because we all know that following your gut is always such a good idea. Passionate argument is proof enough for them.
In the immortal words of Howard W. Campbell Jr.:

"The truth of your leader August Craptower, and those like him, will be with mankind forever, as long as there are men and women who listen to their guts instead of their minds."
                    -From Mother Night

August Craptower was a leader in the neo-nazi community in Kurt Vonnegut's little morality play there. August Craptower, George Bush, same thing.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that say these two are having an argument. The logical one states his case. He won't usually be all impassioned and heartfelt and all up in people's guts because he feels that the logic of his case, the obvious rightness of what he's saying based on rational thought, will shine through and people will get it, and as long as the people listening aren't totally evil they'll agree with him because he's right. I'm not saying that the logical person is infallible here, only that when he's thought things through clearly, he tends to firmly believe he's on the side of right, and based on fact and evidence, or lack of actual evidence of nuclear weapons in Iraq thereof, feels that any other course of action is insane. The Flash can run faster than Superman, because DC comics has made a point of that many times. The Flash can go so fast he vibrates through walls. Superman can fly faster than the Flash can run, but that wasn't the question. Ok maybe there is no logic there, really, but you get where I'm coming from.

So, the logical guy makes his case, and steps back, knowing that after the evidence he's presented, there can be no argument, unless new facts are brought to light which he then will have to deal with. Then the less logical, yet more impassioned Guardian type steps up. He is also convinced of his rightness, but not because of any facts or evidence, excepting perhaps the tidbit that of course God created the world because look at the banana! (It was made to fit a Man's hand (or a monkey's...) and has a natural pull-tab, like a soda can! You can't evolve something like that! (Except that actually, man has cultivated the banana for centuries, making it what it is today, somewhat showing how evolution can work at an accelerated pace, but never mind that bit of fact.))

No, he's convinced of his rightness because he feels it can't be any other way. Of course Saddam is evil and has Weapons of Mass Destruction. He's all dark skin toned and has an evil laugh, and besides, G.W.B. wouldn't lie to us, not the President! He's more than a man, he's God's chosen leader for the greatest nation on Earth! Of course God is on America's side, otherwise we wouldn't be so powerful! He's on our side, just like he was on the side of history's other greatest empires, like Rome, and Egypt... oh wait, they don't usually take the logic that far, you know, because then they'd have to change their opinion. No, the illogical side of this argument will do whatever it takes to win the argument, because he feels right. He'll use facts that are perceived, he'll even make shit up, take things out of context and use them to prove his view of things. And the other guy, the logical one, will tend to sit back and laugh at the other guy's antics, because obviously he's an idiot, and nobody's going to buy that junk... Except of course, that they do.

Why? Well, my rather simple theory is that, since the greater part of the human population are these so-called Guardian types, sheep in other words, they will believe whoever talks longer and louder. Look at that guy, they say, he is so heartfelt and he won't shut up. Obviously he believes what he's saying. That whistleblower over there, who used to be a weapons inspector in Iraq, only offered a cold assesment that he found no WMD. But this guy, he knows that there are weapons over there, if only we keep looking! And he's never even been over there, so that shows you the strength of his conviction!

Logical people don't seem to believe what they're saying, because they offer things as cold fact and then stop talking once they've reached their conclusion, because once an actual case has been reached based on facts, there's really not much left to say. Illogical people seem to believe what they're saying because they never shut up and get louder and louder and more O'Reilly about it, and because they never seem to reach an actual logical conclusion, feel the need to make up for it with volume and heart. And the sucker that is the human race eats it up.

It's all very sad, but based on this fact alone, I'd say that the human race doesn't have a whole lot of time left. As races go, that is. The inevitable conclusion to a race gone with the Pied Piper is extinction. Unless lemmings learn to actually use their minds and not only their guts.

Comments

[Gary]

you forgot to mention that the heartfelt guy who won't shut up also looks kind of like their dad. just thought I'd throw in there.

Since I have a one year old now I have to be a little more hopeful than you are in your post. In the course of a day i go back and forth between having fantasies about a star trek like future and hoping that a big rock takes us out. I just wish I could live long enough to find out what happens. I doubt that I'll be up in "the universe" somewhere watching it all go down like some sort of spiritual spectator. Anyway, I just tell myself that every thing's going to be alright. And if it isn't alright then that will suck.

My wife said to me once that the smart an good people need to have kids to try and balance out the dumb and scary people. But it doesn't seem like it's working out that way. Or maybe it is I have no idea really. So get busy breeding!! hahahaha

[Miss Luongo]

It's not always about following the passionate argument. Sometimes it's about loyalty. That's why so many people won't criticize the government. It's disloyal. It's not that people don't think, it's that they they believe that other things are more important than logic.

If you Rationals could just learn how to use this information to manipulate the sheep, then my man Gore would have won by an overwhelming majority and we wouldn't be in this mess!

Gary, have you and the wife seen Idiocracy?

[Gary]

No, we don't watch movies.

[messiestobjects]

Well, I ain't sayin' all rationals use their powers for good. Although I see how you could've made that mistake. My bad. Some pretty smart people in high places know just how to manipulate the rest of the non-rational populace... in wrong directions. That's part of the problem of having a population of sheep... Why I'm saying that lemmings need to learn to think, or we're done for. Rationality can be used for good or evil... it's so easy to convince the illogicals in wrong directions. It's far easier to lie to them than to tell them the truth, because the truth is harder to sensationalize.

And loyalty is stupidity. At least, blind loyalty is. You should never. ever. nerver. niffer nev. evernever. follow. without asking where you're going. Loyalty to a government that lies to you and refuses to apologize and eats babies just puts you on the wrong side. Even if sometimes eating babies is necessary.

Idiocracy poses the whole intelligent vs. stupid people breeding thing very well.

[messiestobjects]

And believing that other things are more important than logic can be the definition, I believe, of stupidity. Perhaps not always, but usually.

[Gary]

this article seems relevant:

The rise and fall of America's political right

I'm not so sure I'd count them out so quickly though.

[Gary]

speaking of loyalty and other bullshit - did anyone else notice this load?

May 1st - Loyalty Day

I missed that. I was busy bad mouthing the government.

[Gary]

I love the leader! The leader is love! When I'm not with him I feel like a shlub!

[Gary]

ok I had never heard of it before... damn I'm such a commie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day

[messiestobjects]

Just because Bush didn't think of it first doesn't mean he doesn't masturbate to it in the Oval Office.

[Miss Luongo]

May 1 will always be May Day. And no where do they make a bigger deal of it than Annapolis MD.

[Miss Luongo]

No where in the US, that is.

[messiestobjects]

Meh... give it a century or so. Easter used to be crazy pagan sex day... if they can subvert a holiday as cool as that into egg hunting and church going day, they can do anything.

[Sissy]

This is me reading this post:

"Hmmm. I'm a guardian. (read,read,read) Although I'm always right, I never have logically proven facts to back a single arguement I present. (read,read,read) This makes me imaginative. (read,read,read) All aquarians are most likely guardians. (read,read,read) Logical people lack passion and originality. (read,read,read,) Guardians are innovative thinkers who operate outside the box. They no know limits. Their thoughts are boundless and refreshing. Think differently. Argue well. Hold your post. (read,read,read) This world is run by gardians.... (read,read,read) Whack-job guardians. (read,read,read) Pose as an idiot and change the world.

[Gary]

wha?

[Sissy]

Oh. Hello, Gary. (Newman voice)

[messiestobjects]

Welllll... as Miss Luongo has recently convinced me of, Guardians can be just as logical as Rationals. I actually don't know much about personality theory, so I just used the Guardian template as a section of illogical people, which was rather an assumption on my part. It's a nomenclature misunderstanding, apparently. So, don't take it personally. I ought to stay out of personality theory altogether, and my post ought not to have read Rational Vs. Guardian so much as Intelligent Vs. Retarded, or Logical People Vs. Illogical People.

In other words, I implied strongly that a person's logic can be measured by their personality type, and that was very illogical of me.

[Gary]

maybe it was because Julie likes to label us as "rationals" - much like how certain people use "liberal" as an insult. She's trying to make being 'rational' into something bad. That's people not in the reality based community do. hahahaha.

[Miss Luongo]

I love Rationals! They're my favorite people on the whole earth. I envy and befriend them.

Saranne, you're an INFP (Idealist). I'm pretty sure. But you can test and see. I'll send you the link to the best MBTI online.

[spank]

complete rubbish

[Miss Luongo]

I'm not sure what's rubbish. Logical argument? Loyalty Day? Personality theory? If it's personality theory, then you can ask Harvard Business School, the CIA, the FBI, the military, and top American corporations why they use and trust it.

[Gary]

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

ok everyone take the test so I can figure out who I'm supposed to like.

[spank]

Rubbish, Miss luongo, was me trying to get thru all that hyper big word commenting only to find out what I already know. Im a communist. and a liberal, and possibly some other unmentionable things. it is my opinion, that depending on what kinda mood you are in, the results on such tests can vary greatly.

[spank]

Thants a good question...I wonder what aspect of the test they value so much? what quality are they looking to weed out? couldnt you just "fake it" is this possible? maybe only for the crimminaly insane. such as myself.

[spank]

according to the test i should be either management or an accountant or a stock broker. i think its because i said i dont being late to appointments.

[messiestobjects]

I took the test Gary linked to, and this time I scored INTJ... usually I score INTP, but after going to personalitypage.com and reading about INTJs, it does seem like a more accurate description of me... of course, that's probably because the label for an INTJ is "Mastermind", and I always wanted that to be my super-villian name! Muah hah ha.

[spank]

I am so jealous that you are "mastermind"

I am a terrible test taker...usually about half way thru i get bored and just start guessing...which explains my SAT scores.

[Gary]

I got INTJ too. I took another version of the test and go the same thing. Then I took the first test again and thought a little more about the answers and got it again. I've also gotten INTP in the past.

I feel like Mike is a bit more social than I am though. And he loves adventures, where as I I'm a total homebody. I don't like being too far away from my tempurpedic bed and my music. I get happy when I see the sign for my exit on the highway. I wasn't always like that though. I think I'm just getting old.

[Sissy]

Okay. I'm taking the test now. Thanks, Jules!

[messiestobjects]

INTJs unite! Against, um, people who aren't dorks.

Anyway, Gary I get where you're coming from, though. Not that I don't want to travel and have adventures and whatnot anymore, because I really do, but after more than ten years of knocking about and never really having my own space, it's really really really nice to have my own sweet swingin' bachelor pad to go to. I get very exceited when I see 'Delaware Water Gap' written down anywhere.

I'm not actually very social, though. The only people I've actually seen or hung out with since coming back, besides my family, are Discouragement Kitten and Miss Luongo. There's not really anybody else I have any need to see... Maybe I ought to have an apartment-warming shindig after all...?! Ugh. We INTJs don't really like social events. And a social event in my own place might make my sphincter weld shut.

[Gary]

INTJ's aren't dorks?

Well I like parties - I even like being a host. I learned this in college after Scott would pass out by 9:30 and leave me with a bunch of freaks to deal with for the rest of the night. Put some drinks in me and I can work the door pretty well. But make sober small talk with strangers (or even people I know)? Forget it. I'd rather stick needles in my eyes. I think the MBTI test doesn't take alcohol into account.

[messiestobjects]

Oh yeah, INTJs are the worst kind of dorks, that's what I meant.

[Gary]

http://similarminds.com/jung.html - -I just took this one and I got ISTP ??? wtf? OK I'm done with this shit now.

[messiestobjects]

Yes well, it's all very subjective, by definition, isn't it? Like I said once long ago, it's navel gazing, and navel gazing really isn't a science. But it can be quite nice to read about all those nice aspects of your personality. Another reason I like being an INTJ is that even the weaknesses that they list for them are not things I'd really consider weaknesses, so much as other people's misguided notions about what's important! So, everybody wins.

[Gary]

So what other results are people getting? What does Julie claim to be? I want to know if I should be associating with these people or not.

[Jim]

I'm going out on a limb and saying that I cannot as of yet be properly classified because I find myself unable to answer any questions about myself with any level of certainty.

[Gary]

so answer them with a high level of uncertainty.

[messiestobjects]

Well you know, ultimately it's not important. I don't put much stock in personality theory, but it is an interesting sort of guideline, or measuring stick. Against what, exactly, I'm not certain. Other than like, for navel depth.

[Gary]

It's important to me! I have a sneaking suspicion that some of these personalities are bad for me and I want to know which ones to avoid.

[messiestobjects]

INFPs. Avoid INFPs like the insane rabble-rousing illogical devil-worshippers they are.

[Miss Luongo]

I'm an ENFP. Our claim to fame is that we're charming. Oh, boy do people love us. Cult of personality, we are.

NFs (Idealists - me) and NTs (Rationals) are predisposed to like each other because we tend to suss things out and debate and prattle on and one until we figure the world out. Lots of bloggers are NF and NTs.

Simplistically speaking, NTs generally don't like Guardians (SJs) because they value loyalty and rules and that often clashes with the values of Rationals (logic and reason).

Pretty much everyone likes Artisan's (SPs) if they (the Artisans) decide they want you to like them. They are tons of fun and very perceptive. But they are tricksters at heart and will be devils if it amuses them. They value fun above all else.

[Miss Luongo]

Oh, and MBTI isn't as subjective as you think. Don't make the mistake of getting caught up in testing bias problem. Everyone is a type, whether or not you like tests, take the test, or answer correctly. Someone who knows type theory well can categorize anyone.

If you care, you can try a few tests, see what you get, then read the descriptions and see which one sounds like you. It should be a perfect fit. It's not like astrology where there are overly generalized statements that could apply to anyone.

Dig deep into theory and they'll tell you what toys you played with as a kid and what types of books you like (or if you like books at all). Sure, everyone is unique ... just not as unique as you think.

Regarding its validity, it's important if you want to understand what motivates people. I do.

[messiestobjects]

Uh-oh... I've awakened the MBTI Kraken.

[messiestobjects]

But I find myself enjoying the whole MBTI conversation, despite myself. I think it's because I'm all set up about being a Mastermind. Now all I need are some diabolical plans.

[spank]

"I'm going out on a limb and saying that I cannot as of yet be properly classified because I find myself unable to answer any questions about myself with any level of certainty."

I hear ya dude. I have to sti there for twenty minutes trying to figure out if i can "solve problems quickly" well dur i guess not if i cant fucking take the test in less than 10 hours. im a little indecisive.

[Gary]

"Pedagogue each is both the other's mentor and student: has a "parent to child" feel" INTJ to ENFP

Julie - I want you to call me "Daddy"

[Miss Luongo]

If I had a nickle for every man who asked me to call him Daddy...psh.

[Gary]

you'd probably have about a buck or so...

come on people we need some more letters - hurry up!

[spank]

letters for wut?

[Gary]

forget it spank