I am way behind on my travel posts. I went to Portland Oregon in October, after getting back from Hawaii. I don't have much to say about the trip though... I didn't see or do anything particularly noteworthy because it was actually a busy week of work, plus a busy week of school work, plus some old friends from Chiemsee live there and I spent the small amount of free time I had at a Halloween wig party they were having. Not much to blog about really, because I'm not going to tell the story of how I wound up passed out in my rental car, covered in vomit and dog poop, trapped in the wrong rental car lot at three in the morning just hours before my flight. It's just a typical Chiemsee sort of thing. Good times. And since I'm not going to tell that story, and the only pictures I got were of the Portlandia statue, I'm going to post a discussion from my Philosophy class discussion board. The question on the table was—"What
is your philosophy? Do you believe in God, and if so, for what reasons? How
would you prove to someone who does not believe in God that God does indeed
exist and your belief is true?"—And since I tend to have one sided atheist
rants on my blog, I thought it might be fun to show me in action when people
talk back to me. Last names are left out to protect the ignorant innocent.
Author:
messiestobjects
- Posted Date:
-
Monday, August 27, 2012 11:08:16 AM EDT
- Edited Date:
-
Monday, August 27, 2012 11:08:16 AM EDT
I am an atheist. Not
only am I an atheist, but I will state outright and argue with anyone who wants
to argue rationally about it that religion is the greatest evil that humanity
ever invented. I am also a humanist, in that I am concerned for people
suffering under the delusion of religion. I respect their right to believe
whatever they wish, but I do not respect the belief itself that was not arrived
at with critical thought backed with evidence, nor do I respect the right which
all religions seem to claim of forcing their beliefs onto the populace through
moral legislation.
Since I would never try
to prove to anyone that God existed, as there is no evidence that he does, I
suppose I should turn the question around. However, neither would I try to
prove that God does not exist. That is not what atheism means. I would never
state categorically that there is no God for the same reason that I would never
unconditionally declare that there is not a race of hyper-intelligent shrimp
living in the oceans of Europa. There probably isn’t, but it’s an unanswerable
question at the moment. It is not up to me to prove that something exists for
which there is no evidence; instead, it is up to those who want others to
believe in their God(s) to prove to me that he/she/they do exist. There are an
infinite amount of ideas of things which might
exist out there somewhere, but it is ridiculous to expect us to have to go
around actually disproving each one
of them.
There is plenty of
scientific evidence which proves that a creator is unnecessary, however.
Evolution has shown that life can evolve from simple single-celled organisms
without divine help, and modern cosmology is rife with ideas on how the
Universe itself may have got its start. We may not yet actually understand how
life got started in the first place, but I am far more comfortable with saying
“I don’t know” to the ultimate answers of these questions than I am in trusting
to the ridiculous claims from some musty old books, which were written by goat
farmers and compiled by scribes and rulers with political agendas in a time
before anyone on Earth had the smallest idea of what was really going on in the
Universe. Science has shown that it is quite capable of understanding the world
around us, and in a far more accurate way than any single religious claim has
ever been able to.
Author:
Jason
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 1:07:37 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 1:07:37 PM EDT
I
understand and respect your belief. I do belief in God. I see that
you have quite a problem with religion...which is the same sentiment of a
lot of people. I was wondering do you belief that there is a
difference between religion and having faith? Also you said that "There is
plenty of scientific evidence which proves that a creator is unnecessary,
however. Evolution has shown that life can evolve from simple single-celled
organisms without divine help, and modern cosmology is rife with ideas on how
the Universe itself may have got its start", my question to you would
then be have you ever wonder where did that single- cell organisms
came from?
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 2:12:45 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 2:12:45 PM EDT
Well, faith is the belief in something for which there is no evidence, and
religion is simply the codifying of those beliefs. So no, I don't see a huge
difference. They both involve a lack of critical thought.
And yes, I do wonder how life got started in the first
place; that first single-celled organism. It's true that science has not yet
discovered the truth behind the beginning of life on Earth, but that's not to
say that there are not some very reasonable theories about it. There's even a
name for the scientific branch of the study of how biological life could arise
from inorganic matter through natural processes: Abiogenesis.
However, the important thing about this is that it
shows the difference between the religious mind and the scientific mind;
Scientists have no problem looking at a question, and saying "I don't
know" as an answer. In fact, a good scientist views such questions as
exciting challenges, and will attempt to find the answers through further
questioning, experimenting, revising, reframing the question, experimenting
again and so on until an answer is found. Religious folks delight in pointing
out areas where science has not yet found the answer and saying "We can't
know! God did it!" But this is a dangerous game that religion has been
playing for centuries. Every time Religion has tried to use God to explain something
which we don't yet understand, it has had to backpedal when science eventually
has explained it. In light of this, God is merely an ever-receding pocket of
ignorance.
Robin
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 4:57:53 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 4:57:53 PM EDT
It
says in the bible Proverbs 3:5, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and
lean not on your own understanding." I quote the bible and I realize that
not everyone believes in it. What makes this useful to the -
"Religious folks delight in pointing out areas where science has not yet
found the answer and saying 'We can't know! God did it!' But this is
a dangerous game that religion has been playing for centuries. Every time Religion
has tried to use God to explain something which we don't yet understand, it has
had to backpedal when science eventually has explained it. In light of this,
God is merely an ever-receding pocket of ignorance.", is that this is a
overgeneralized statement with a hint of disgust -"ever-receding pocket of
ignorance." Not every person that believes in God writes off their lack of
knowledge for the world and our existence to God's doing due to ignorance. It
is that obviously we have only the capability to think for ourselves and not
others, and yet we have the choice to think of others. It is a humble
choice that we put someone before us, especially God. We trust God's ways
before ours, there is no room for pride or ignorance if we do this. Then what
is ignorant in a person who in their own life acknowledges God's
existence, where as another person would hope to dissuade that person to
believe in God by only having physical facts to show for
proof towards a spiritual matter and of course without the ablity to
completely know what that person knows for themselves?
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 5:56:59 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 5:56:59 PM EDT
Proverbs 3:5, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your
own understanding"
This is a wonderful Bible Verse which illustrates
another critical difference between Religion and Rationality. You'll get no
argument from me about the meaning of this verse, and in fact it is a major
reason why I am an atheist.
Please explain exactly how "God is merely an
ever-receding pocket of ignorance" is an overgeneralized statement,
especially in the context in which I used it. I don't think you are using that
phrase correctly because it is a very specific statement which means
that all throughout history, whenever man has not understood something, he has
attributed it to God. Priests used to preach that Angels kept the Sun and the
Moon in the sky and moving about. Now they do not, because we understand the
mechanics of gravity regarding bodies in motion. People used to think that
insanity was a sign of demonic possession and subjected the afflicted to
unspeakable tortures, such as drilling holes in their head to get the demons
out. Now even the most fundamentalist among the religious understand that human
psychology is prone to certain neurosis and understand that demons have nothing
to do with it, or at least understand that these people require actual medical
treatment rather than torture.
I used that phrase which you found offensive, but was
not meant to be, in response to Jason who asked me "have you
ever wonder where did that single- cell organisms came from?
[sic]" because this is an argument that religions like to use often when trying
to prove in God. If we don't know how life began, then God must have done it.
But this is what they used to say about the reason for the sun shining before
we understood Nuclear Physics.
"It is a humble choice that we put someone
before us, especially God. We trust God's ways before ours, there is no room
for pride or ignorance if we do this." This statement is of course a
matter of personal opinion, one with which I strongly disagree. Is it humble to
think that an all-powerful creator who created the entire Universe is
personally concerned with you and your relatively insignificant lifestyle
choices? Or is it more humble to realize that you are one tiny insignificant
human on a tiny insignificant planet of billions of humans orbiting a tiny
insignificant sun which is in a tiny insignificant Galaxy composed of billions
of suns, which in turn is one galaxy among billions?
Lastly, when you say that "only having physical
facts to show for proof towards a spiritual matter and of course
without the ablity to completely know what that person knows for
themselves"[sic] please understand that this is a meaningless
statement to me. In October of 2008 James Randi offered a one million dollar
prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of
any paranormal, supernatural, spiritual or occult power or event. To date, no
one has claimed this prize, or even been able to pass the preliminary test.
People may have experienced personal spiritual events in their lives, but this
is meaningless to all those who have not personally experienced any such thing
and furthermore is absolutely not a claim for the existence of God, much less
for making laws based on said claimant's morals.
Author:
Robin
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 8:49:04 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 8:49:04 PM EDT
The
question that if we believe in God and how would you prove it to someone is all
that I am trying to share. There is way too much we both have to say on this
and although we're not here to prove each other wrong, I was curious if my
thoughts would make any difference to yours that maybe no one has
said to you before. No big deal, it's a good discussion no matter how much
we agree or disagree because it has substance from both sides and if you think
of it like math when you're finding the lowest common denominator, it goes
as far as it can and I think that's interesting and is good critical thinking
on both sides of this, and I think we're there. :)
Author:
Tracy
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 8:13:47 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 8:13:47 PM EDT
Hey messiestobjects,
It
was very nice reading your views on religion. I am not an atheist but I also
don't consider myself to have any religion right now. All I know is that I have
faith, not sure in who or what...but it keeps me going each time I struggle
with something. I can say that I never met an atheist and when I first started
reading your post I was nervous, but you made some great points. I like that
you would never force your belief on anyone just as well as people should not
force their belief on you. Can't wait to read more of your posts in the future!
Tracy
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 11:41:24 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 11:41:24 PM EDT
Atheism does tend to make people nervous and/or angry. It's strange that it is
that way... after all is said and done atheism is simply the declination to
believe in something for which there is no evidence. The nature of religion is
such that its followers need for as many people as possible to share their own
beliefs in order to obscure the idea that there is actually no other reason to
have faith in such ideas other than the reasoning of popular opinion. When a
jerk like me thumbs his nose at such beliefs, it rattles the false idea of the
self-evidency of those beliefs.
Author:
Jason
Posted
Date:
Monday,
September 3, 2012 2:00:40 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Monday,
September 3, 2012 2:00:40 PM EDT
Messiestobjects, as I read through all you responses it appears that because you don't
believe in God you are trying your best to have everyone else believe what you
believe. I am not convinced and you have not showed us that God does not exist.
You talk about science but the same things you are saying that religion does
not prove no science has proved it either. I not saying that in every instance
majority rule is right, but 82% of Americans believe in God. Are you saying
that we are all wrong and you and your science is right? By the way if God does
not exist and science can explain and prove everything as you a making it out
to be ...... why haven't they proved to the 82% of Americans and the rest of
the world that God does not exist? One last thing, this country was founded on
God! our forefathers used the Bible to aide them in writing the constitution
that you and the rest of us abides by. You spend the American dollar
"In God we trust".
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Monday,
September 3, 2012 4:11:53 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Monday,
September 3, 2012 4:11:53 PM EDT
Jason, apparently you haven't actually read my other posts, or at least you
haven't comprehended them. As I've stated at least twice, as well as stated
outright in my original post, it is not up to atheists to prove that God does
not exist. That is not our claim. I am not making out that science has proved
he doesn't exist. I am making out that truths which science has
uncovered have simply made him unnecessary as an explanation for life, the
universe, and everything. Atheism is simply a LACK of belief in theistic claims
for which there are NO EVIDENCE. There is no evidence that God exists, period.
Therefore, I don't believe him. And you are correct, the fact that 92 percent
of Americans believe in him is meaningless. 73 percent of Americans also don't know the reason
behind the Cold War. More Americans know who Kim Kardashian
is and what she is up to than who Richard Feynman was and what he did for this
country. By and large, the larger the number of Americans that believe in
something, the more wary you should be about the veracity of it.
Also, you are 100 percent wrong; our country was not
founded on God. "In God We Trust" was added as a motto to the
American dollar in 1956, many years after the country was all done being founded.
Also, there's this: The 1796 US Treaty with Tripoli, Article 11 reads: "As
the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on
the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against
the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said
States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan
[Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from
religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing
between the two countries." Additionally, none of the founding fathers
were Christians, especially not Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, or Madison.
This claim that we are a Christian Nation, founded on God, is completely false
and revisionist. They despised the Christian religion, in fact, and left behind
many writings to attest to that fact. Have you ever heard of the Separation of
Church and State? A concept introduced by Thomas Jefferson.
I am not trying to have everyone believe what I
believe, Jason, far from it. I leave that sort of behavior up to the religious
inquisitionists and Republicans who want to dictate laws based on so-called
Christian morality. All I want is for people to understand the difference
between fact and opinion, evidence and belief, knowledge and faith.
Author:
Dana
Posted
Date:
Monday,
September 3, 2012 11:16:28 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Monday,
September 3, 2012 11:16:28 PM EDT
Messiestobjects,
that was a very well thought out and well written argument and it is apparent
that you have taken the time to draw the conclusions that you have.
Interestingly enough, I was also 'indoctrinated' at a very young age into
religion and due to many unfortunate circumstances spent many years resentful
at churches and the idea of God. My views have since changed with age and life
experience and although I am not here to force my beliefs upon you (something I
still abhor), I do have a few things to say in response to your post. I was at
one point a nursing major and took several science classes in order to get all my prerequ's for the program. I have
a friend who is a nurse and is athiest and felt that his science classes helped
him in that direction. At times he would ask me while I was in these classes
how I could still believe in God and I would answer him, how can you take these
classes and not believe in God? The human body is made up of so many complex
systems that all must work together perfectly forr us to exist. Additionally,
the world around us must operate in a certain way as well to create a balance
for the environment and for us. It is a hard pill for me to swallow that these
complex systems just evolved over time without some sort of divine guidance. I
agree with you that people's faiths are their own and should never be forced
upon others which is why I would never be associated with people that live as
such. However, I have personally lived through many life experiences that have
given me a firm foundation for a belief in God that science can never explain.
Also, interestingly, science itself is based soley on theories. Theories that
when retested are often altered and changed. The theory of evolution is just
that, a theory that began with the observations of some guy in 1859... over 150
years ago. Their are many aspects of Darwin's original theory that have been
discredited by scientists over time. The point I am trying to make is that
nothing is absolute, which you agree with. Everyone has a right ot believe
whatever they want and it is harmful to try to force those opinions on others.
Author:
Messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Tuesday,
September 4, 2012 12:01:33 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Tuesday,
September 4, 2012 12:01:33 PM EDT
HI
Dana,
I
appreciate your viewpoints on God and your willingness to accept differing
beliefs in people. I agree that you should never force your beliefs on anyone
through say, legislation or the brainwashing of children. However, this idea
that simply debating for your own point of view is the same thing as forcing
your opinion on others is false. Merely having to hear about the reasoning and
logic behind science and evolution vs. creationism in a school is not an act of
violation! I find it amusing that certain Christians can’t read my views on
atheism in a philosophy class without gasping in fear that I am forcing them to
hear that not everyone agrees with their own views on the existence of God, and
with good reason. Especially since this is actually exactly what they are
attempting to do when they are happy to tell me all about how I am in the
minority in America, and how 92 percent of Americans believe in God, so I must
be wrong and should stop trying to force my views on others through, say, a
debate as assigned by the class professor! Clearly, you are not one of those
types, and so I am grateful to have the opportunity to debate you in a rational
manner.
So
with that in mind, I will first address your statement that “The human body is
made up of so many complex systems that all must work together perfectly for us
to exist. Additionally, the world around us must operate in a certain way as
well to create a balance for the environment and for us. It is a hard pill for
me to swallow that these complex systems just evolved over time without some
sort of divine guidance.” The fact of
the matter is that just because you personally find the human body to be so
complex that you don’t understand how it could have happened without some kind
of a creator is meaningless. Perhaps you studied evolution in school, perhaps
not, but it is clear to me that either way you haven’t fully grasped the power
of natural selection. I don’t hold that against you because the fact of the
matter is that very few people seem to understand the Theory of Evolution,
which is because it is a complicated idea and requires concentrated effort and
will to study it and completely grasp it. But anybody can do so if they want to
and so I suggest you spend some time studying books and lectures on the Theory
of Evolution and fully coming to grips with how it works before you decide that
it can’t possibly explain complex life forms.
Which
brings me to my next point; you state that “The theory of evolution is just
that, a theory,” which is a common statement by creationists who don’t
understand what a scientific theory actually is. Did you know that gravity is
also “just" a theory? However, you don’t see many creationists trying to
prove their point by stepping out of 12th story windows! Most people tend to
confuse a hypothesis, which is an educated guess about the outcome of an
experiment, with a Scientific Theory, which is the framework of ideas which
explain an interrelated set of facts and observations. In fact, the Scientific
Theory is the strongest and best explanation of the natural world that currently
exists! When you say that “Their [sic] are many aspects of Darwin's original
theory that have been discredited by scientists over time,” what you actually
mean is that a good scientific theory must be falsifiable, which in turn means
that they must be able to adapt to new information, i.e. observations,
evidence, and facts. So it is true that the Theory of Evolution has changed
over time, but rather than being discredited it has only become stronger. It is
currently the strongest explanation for how life has organized itself on this
world, and you are dead wrong to say that it has been proven incorrect in any
meaningful way.
Lastly,
I would like to direct you to two excellent videos by Qualia Soup which explain
very clearly how Science and evolution work. The first one is called
"Skewed Views of Science" and is self-explanatory. The second one is
called simply "Evolution" and is an excellent primer on the
misconceptions surrounding evolution. They are ten minutes each and well worth
your time.
Author:
Samantha
Posted Date:
Monday, August 27, 2012 4:56:16 PM EDT
Edited Date:
Monday, August 27, 2012 4:56:16 PM EDT
I do believe in God and
attend church when I can. I was raised Catholic and then changed to
Lutheran. The reason I changed I attended church with my cousin and I
enjoyed her listening to her Pastor and Youth Pastor who talked about you
making a change in the world. Whether it be big or small everyone can
make a change. While some people believe there is no God how can that be
with this earth as beutiful as it is.
In trying to prove to
someone there is a God I would not be the person to do that, as I am one person
and how do they know what I say is true or false. I believe that people
accept or deny someone or something for different reasons, and if they want to
change they can but on their terms or something in their life has made them
change. Just like when I reading Tracy posting that he started
questioning the beliefs of the Catholic Church and did not take everything they
said at face value. The reason he changed his beliefs was because of when
he was sick and it made him start questioning things.
Author:
Messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 11:04:39 AM EDT
Edited
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 11:04:39 AM EDT
"While
some people believe there is no God, how can that be with this earth as
beautiful as it is."
Hi Samantha,
I just want you to know that I'm not picking a
fight, but I want to respond to this statement of yours. The fact of the matter
is that beauty does not imply a creator. Evolution can actually explain why we
find the earth beautiful because 'survival of the fittest', as Natural
Selection is otherwise known, does not mean survival of the strongest,
as is often misunderstood. It means survival is awarded to the organism that fits
its environment better than other organisms. This means that we have
evolved and flourished on this planet because we adapted to the environment
extremely successfully, in large part thanks to our brains (and a very
enthusiastic 'thumbs up' to our opposable digits). Is it really a surprise,
then, that our minds find this world in which we grew up to be beautiful?
You don't personally have to accept evolution as true
in order to see how my argument shows why beauty is not an argument for God.
The fact that evolution has a perfectly logical explanation for beauty simply
shows that there is an alternative possible explanation for why we find the
world to be attractive, and why beauty in and of itself is not proof of God's
existence.
Paulette
Posted Date:
Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:45:58 PM
EDT
Edited Date:
Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:45:58 PM
EDT
In my youth I would
have to say that my belief in God was force fed to me. As I grew older and saw
more terrible things I would come to believe there is no God. For if there was
a God and if he was so good why then could all these bad things happen to one
person. As I grew even older I realized that God was not a thing but a way to
live a set of standards that people use to have something that is greater than
them and then the fear of being alone would be less scary. God exists because
there are people who believe in this theory and if there is belief then it
becomes a thing. The existence of God is not in its physical form but in its
metaphysical form (can’t believe I just used that word) and it is because of
this that God exists.
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 11:50:17 AM EDT
Edited
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 11:50:17 AM EDT
Hi
Paulette,
So, are you saying that you think that just
because people believe in something that doesn't exist and choose to live their
lives by the myths surrounding the non-existent deity, that this deity somehow
becomes an actuality? Or are you using the term metaphysical as a metaphor for
"not real"?
Obviously, as an atheist, I disagree that the term
"metaphysical God" means anything at all: If there is no God then
there is no God. But I'm curious to know what you think metaphysical means,
because it sounds to me like it means "wishing something into
existence".
Sorry, don't mean to sound combative, it's a difficult
subject to talk about without sounding confrontational! I really am just trying
to talk about the definition of metaphysics, here.
Paulette
Posted
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 9:04:14 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 9:04:14 PM EDT
Wait,
wait, wait messiestobjects. LOL!
This
is the first class I have taken on Philosophy. So then my first response is
yours. Oh great, the pressure to answer. So I'll try.
I
think that if you want to believe this gives it, its reality. The more you
believe the more you think it is real so it will be real to you.
So
I guess the answer is not if you wish but "believe" which to me are
two different things.
I
am 39 and still dont know where I stand on God, I sometimes find myself saying
"God forbid" or "Oh My God", but then I think why did I say
that do I really believe??
Sometimes
I pray, but not really sure why.
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 10:48:59 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 10:48:59 PM EDT
This is my first philosophy class too! It's perfectly ok not to know where you
stand on God... but if you make statements about him, I think it's important to
be clear what you mean, which is why I asked all the questions. Again, I
am a dyed-in-the-wool atheist so if anyone is going to make claims about God, I
am usually going to challenge them on it. It's not personal, and I'm not trying
to convert anyone, but it's important to me.
I think an important part of philosophy is the art of
Sophistry, which I know that Socrates spent a lot of time philosophizing
against. In his day, Sophistry was the art of argument using rhetoric (word
games, essentially), in order to prove a point, whereas Socrates tended not to
respect such approaches; he seemed to be more concerned with the actuality of
ideas and delighted in winning arguments not by making statements, but by
asking his opponent questions.
In this case, I want to get to the bottom of the
difference between a wish and a belief. By "wish," I don't mean
something you wish for from a magic lamp. I mean it as something which you need
to be true in order to validate your beliefs. Often, people claim that prayer
works, which is wishful thinking. There have actually been experiments performed
which test the power of prayer, and the results are conflicting and certainly
not in favor of prayer. There have been studies performed by religious groups
in the hopes that they could prove that prayer works scientifically, and they
found that prayer in fact could have a negative effect on the recipient of a
prayer! I think that what you can safely take away from this is that prayer, at
best, is not scientific and as such there is no evidence that it actually works
for anything.
Belief, in my mind, is no different from a wish in
this respect. Just because you believe in something, doesn't make it true.
Harold Camping predicted last year that the Rapture would occur on May 21,
2011. Some of his followers believed the "proof" which he claimed to
have found in the Bible, and sold everything they owned in order to donate
money and time to Camping's ministry to try and get the word out to as many
people as possible. They BELIEVED that the Lord was coming back. When he
didn't, lives were ruined. Belief does not make something true, in any sense
that matters.
So my Socratic question to you is; if you believe
something for which there is no evidence, and it becomes real to you, in what sense
is it real? If you pray for world peace, or for a relative not to die of
cancer, and world peace doesn't happen or he or she does die (Or even if he or
she doesn't die, the question remains; was it the prayer that saved him or her,
or modern medical treatment? You can prove that medical science may have had
something to do with it, but you'll never be able to show what good, if any,
that prayer did), and yet you continue to pray for things, in what sense are
your beliefs real?
Author:
Robin
Posted
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 11:07:17 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 11:07:17 PM EDT
Messiestobjects,
why do you usually challenge people when they make claims on God? If there was
solid scientific proof of God and prayer, would you believe in God? This is a
deep question for us all, and I think this is very interesting to be able to
discuss such this with people with many views on it in depth
that we might not normally have a chance to otherwise. I'm not used to talking
fairly to someone that is an atheist that doesn't quickly get upset with me for
disagreeing in what I believe in, while they tend to get upset if I
disagree with what they believe in. I appreciate your objectiveness!
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 11:22:24 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Thursday,
August 30, 2012 11:22:24 PM EDT
I usually challenge them because I find that most beliefs are based on faulty
reasoning, and I myself was once a victim of religious belief. I am a first
generation atheist: my family are NOT happy with me (in the religious sense, at
least). The process of realizing that I had been lied to my whole life, and of
shedding my irrational beliefs, was both liberating and traumatic. So the debate
is a lifelong, ongoing process for me. I challenge others because I am
challenging myself.
I have yet to hear of any evidence for God's
existence, but I will tell you this: If there were solid, verifiable evidence
that God existed, not only would I NOT believe in God, but there would not be
one single believer left on Earth for the same reason that no one on Earth
believes that the Sun exists: We know it does.
This is the crux of atheism. It is NOT a belief or a
claim that God does not exist. It is simply a lack of belief in things for
which there are no evidence. You yourself are an atheist you know... you don't
believe in Odin, Thor, Baal, Osiris, Ahuru Mazda, or Zeus! I just go one God
further... :)
Author:
Christine
Posted
Date:
Friday,
August 31, 2012 1:36:37 AM EDT
Edited
Date:
Friday,
August 31, 2012 1:36:37 AM EDT
Hi messiestobjects,
Religion
is a real sort of tabou subject, in the sense that if you don't believe in God
or if you question his existence then you are sort of looked at with a
discerning eye. It is really hard to question someones beliefs without at
times sounding combative. I myself question if there is a god,
especially the more you read about history and science.
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Friday,
August 31, 2012 10:49:15 AM EDT
Edited
Date:
Friday,
August 31, 2012 10:49:15 AM EDT
Right; when you claim to be an atheist who finds religion ridiculous, religious
people don't like it. Which is actually a double standard... I don't like it
that Republicans are attempting to legislate women's reproductive rights based
on their religion, but for some reason we are supposed to respect their beliefs
anyway. This is an untenable state of affairs. Any religion that needs to
coerce others into adhering to its belief system through the law deserves NO
respect, and needs to be called out on all of its hypocrisies at every
opportunity.
It may have been a taboo subject once, but no longer.
There are more and more people realizing that religion is a big scam every day,
and the internet has made it possible for us to make ourselves heard without
fear of being ostracized from our local communities... I was an atheist for a
while before I felt comfortable declaring that fact, but the more I've learned
and the more I've debated, the more confident I am and I no longer have any
trouble wearing a T-shirt that says ATHEIST! out in public.
Author:
Brittany
Posted Date:
Saturday, September 1, 2012 8:47:07 PM
EDT
Edited Date:
Saturday, September 1, 2012 8:47:07 PM
EDT
Personally, I was
raised Methodist in a small town in southern Missouri. Church activities
constituted most of my social life as an adolescent, as well as the social
lives of my peers. This being said, I bought into Christianity wholeheartedly
during that part of my life. I believed in God, I was baptized, and I became a
member of the United Methodist Church. As I got older though, I started to
question the things that I had been taught, and slowly became an atheist. My
main question was: If science can prove that something is true, why would
seemingly intelligent people deny its validity because of the Bible? For
example, some religious people have a problem acknowledging that evolution is
real, or that the Earth is actually over 4.5 billion years old. I just can't
bring myself to believe in an ideology that tries to hold back the advancement
of knowledge in our society. I also dislike when religion is used as a weapon
in the political arena. For some reason, all politicians have to say that
they're Christians to get elected, and sometimes they use the idea of
Christianity to deny people their rights. I also think that people often use
religion as a crutch to get through the trying times in their lives, instead of
actively trying to fix things themselves. Telling someone to “Pray about it”,
is much less effective than giving them advice on how they can proactively make
the change they want to see in their lives.
With this in mind, I would
never take it upon myself to impose my own personal philosophy (that science is
truth, and that we make the decisions that shape our lives) on someone who said
that they did believe in God. I think people are entitled to their own beliefs,
and no one is necessarily right all the time. However, if someone had a
question about whether a scientific fact or a religious idea was true, I would
offer them my opinion.
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 10:59:55 AM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 10:59:55 AM EDT
"With
this in mind, I would never take it upon myself to impose my own personal
philosophy (that science is truth, and that we make the decisions that shape
our lives) on someone who said that they did believe in God."
What
do you mean by "impose"? I would never try and force someone to
believe/acknowledge scientific truths through say, legislation or brainwashing,
but I have no problem "imposing" my atheism on people through
conversation or debate. Religion has been imposing it's moral values on
everyone for centuries, and has been a huge force for harm in the world. I am
compelled to point out errors in reasoning whenever I can because I feel very
strongly that if humanity doesn't wise up very soon, we're going to destroy
ourselves.
I
also don't believe that people are necessarily entitled to their beliefs. What
I mean is, Islamic fundamentalists believe that it is their imperative to kill
all infidels and subjugate all women. Do you think they are entitled to this
belief? Christians in the US seem to believe that it is their right to impose
the teaching of "Intelligent Design" in public schools at the expense
of evolution. They also believe that Homosexuals do not have the same legal
rights as other human beings, or that women don't have the right to choose how
to use their own reproductive systems, and want to enforce this moral code on
them by law. They are entitled to hold these insane beliefs amongst themselves,
but they are not entitled to believe that they have the right to force other
people to live by their beliefs, because we have a constitutional guarantee for
the separation of Church and State.
Since "Science adjusts its views based on what's observed, and Faith is
the denial of observation, so that belief can be preserved," (Tim Minchin) I believe
that the teaching of science trumps the beliefs of the religious in every
public sphere. In the US, Christianity and other religions have every right to
teach their beliefs to their own children at home and in church (or at temple
or at the mosque etc etc) or even in conversation and debate with others, but
they don't have the right to claim that we are trampling over their religious
freedoms by keeping their beliefs out of schools and out of the lawbooks.
I realize that, as an atheist, you probably agree with me at least to some
degree, but I feel like it's important that when someone says "everyone is
entitled to their beliefs" to point out that beliefs are not guaranteed
equal status with the truth. The truth is not somewhere in between a fact and a
lie, and opinions are not worthy of equal footing next to facts.
Author:
Claire
Posted Date:
Sunday, September 2, 2012 11:52:36 AM
EDT
Edited Date:
Sunday, September 2, 2012 11:52:36 AM
EDT
Samantha and Stefani-
I'm right in the same boat with you! I know I believe in God, and while I could
probably start an argument with other people who don't believe in God, I don't
feel the need to. Faith is an intimate thing. It is shaped by the way you grew
up and by the situations you've lived through. Sure, someone could argue God is
fake and use science to back up their claims, but that still wouldn't change my
views. After living in a Christian home for my whole life my beliefs are so
ingrained into the person I am that no one can take them away. Even though I
may not attend church on a regular basis the Christian values I have will stick
with me.
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 12:03:34 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 12:03:34 PM EDT
"I could probably start an argument with other people who don't believe
in God, I don't feel the need to." REMINDER: The topic of this discussion board is
"What is your philosophy? Do you believe in God, and if so, for what reasons?
How would you prove to someone who does not believe in God that God does indeed
exist and your belief is true?"
Not an argument, a discussion. You get more points for
the assignment the more good comments you make.
Author:
Jeanette
Posted Date:
Sunday, September 2, 2012 10:57:57 PM
EDT
Edited Date:
Sunday, September 2, 2012 10:57:57 PM
EDT
I am a believer.
My views have changed as I have gotten older but I have always believed in
God. I was raised Baptist. When I was 5 my parents would send me
and my borthers and sisters to Sunday School every week. They
decided to stop goin after a few years but I went every week. I believed
what was told to me and just accepted what they said. After
graduating High School things in my life went astray and I stopped going to
church for a long time. After my Divorce in 2006 I spiraled downhill and
called out to God in Prayer asking for help. I am not going to go into
all the details but I did not think I was going to make it through the night, I
awoke in the morning and heard a voice telling me to get up, get dressed and go
to church. So I did. I decided to go to a local church here and
immediately felt at home. It is not your conventional church. Few
months after I started going I decided to be baptized and accept Jesus as my
savior, not because someone was telling me it was the thing to do but because
it was what I felt in my heart. I felt the change inside after the
baptism. Few months later I met a man who did not believe in God.
He knew I was a christian and I accepted that he was not. I did not force
my views/beliefs on him but I did pray to God for help in deciding what to
do. A few months later he asked to go to church with me, the first time
he felt uncomfortable and left shortly after arriving and did not come again
for a few weeks. Eventually on his own he came back and accepted Jesus as
his Savior and was baptized. When I asked him why the change
he told me that he had been hearing voices for a few weeks telling him it was
time to go to church. I can't prove to someone that God
exists, but you also can't prove that he does not exist. Each branch of
religion be it Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc still believes
in God, they just worship him differently. I found that the less
conventional way was best for me to show my love of God. Each person has
to find their own path. Sure I still stumble and make mistakes, but my
belief in God helps me to get through the good times and the bad.
Author:
messiestobjects
Posted
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 11:28:27 PM EDT
Edited
Date:
Sunday,
September 2, 2012 11:28:27 PM EDT
Hi Jeanette,
I have no desire to argue with your personal
experiences that led you or your friend to become born again, but I do want to
address one statement that you made: "I can't prove to someone that God
exists, but you also can't prove that he does not exist." The burden
of proof is an important philosophical argument that has been prominent
recently amid creationist / atheist debates, and the assertion you make here is
an often used point on the religious side. The crux of the matter is that
extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the existence of a God
who is responsible for everything is quite an extraordinary claim for which no
evidence exists. This is the reason why religious belief requires faith. If you
have faith, that is certainly your business (and your unequivocal right), but
you cannot expect someone who has never heard the voices that you have to
accept your claims, which is why the first half of your statement is admirable
and true.
However, the second half is a non-starter, a
non-point, and yet widely used. As I've said elsewhere, it is not up to
unbelievers to prove that something doesn't exist. It would be like if I asked
you thus: Jeanette, do you believe in Zeus? You would probably say no. Then I
would say, you can't prove to me that Zeus does not exist! I've heard Zeus
telling me to go kill Medusa, so I know he is real, and you can't prove to me
that he isn't!" There are many, many ideas in the world of things that
probably don't exist: Purple rain, talking dogs, flying shoes, a teapot
orbiting Jupiter... the only way to definitively prove that a talking dog does
not exist, for example, would be to interview every dog on Earth, which is
absurd. How much harder would it be to prove there is NOT a teapot orbiting
Jupiter, or an all-powerful, invisible creator who only speaks to a chosen few?
Therefore, you can see why most non-Christians are hesitant to accept Christian
claims of special knowledge regarding the creator, and their right to impose
their beliefs through legislation.
And that's it... I tended to have the last word against my classmates. I like to think it's because they had nothing against my devastating logic bombs, but in all likelihood it's more probable that they just didn't understand some of the big words I used. Or that they simply wrote me off as an asshole.-- Powell's books was HUGE!
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